1 - @8 Richard
I'm not sure the majority of the 1 billion Christians believe that judging others is right(opposite of wrong). There are vocal groups that may but that doesn't make them the majority. The Moral Majority or Christian Right certainly think judging is right or they wouldn't try to influence laws and government. I wouldn't say that the Christian Right speak for all Christians. I'd prefer to relate the story of Jesus when he was asked if it was ok to stone a sinner and he replied that "The one without sin should throw the first stone." (I'm not looking at a Bible so sorry if I mis-quoted but you get the idea) That's from the red words in the Bible so I know its true.
A pet peeve I have is for any vocal person or group who takes some stand and others believe they speak for the majority. Just because they're vocal and get attention, does not mean they speak for the majority.

2 - Luke 6:37-38 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.” (not sure how to make these letters "red"...)

"A text without context is a pretext"

I'm not really sure who first said that, but it's very true. Taken out of context, one can get out of this passage that Christians should never judge or condemn. But in context, you can see that judging and condemning is allowed - with the condition that you will be judged or condemned in the same way that you judge or condemn others. This is mighty scary if there's no guiding light by which to judge. Like, say, the Bible. The Bible says that adultery is wrong in many places. By that standard can a Christian not say that adulterers are in the wrong? A classic example is in the Pericope Adulterae that Curt referenced. It was clear by Jewish law that adultery was a sin. Did Jesus judge the woman? Yes, he told her to "sin no more". Did he condemn her? Not in this story.

Curt is right - most Christians don't agree with much of what Rev. Falwell said. Just a month ago he accused large ranks of protestants to be heretics (including myself and possibly Curt too!)
{ Link }

But I digress. Can Christians judge? Yes. SHOULD Christians judge? Probably not as often as we tend to do... I've really been more careful lately with this regard after posting something intended to be funny on a blog someone questioned my faith. While that wasn't called for, it did make me reconsider my tone in these settings.

3 - @12 Bruce
Correct. As I understand it, sin is sin. There's not a rating system. Did Jerry Falwell claim he was without sin or that his sin was in some way less than the others he criticized? Where does he get the authority?

4 - I do want to thank you all for "behaving", even when discussing such a hot topic.

Isn't civil discourse awesome?

Rock

5 - @4: Hate? No. Judgment? Yes. The Rev. Falwell judged. We judge back. Welcome to the flip side of "Judge not...".

And as for Wonkette being slanted, please do tell exactly what part of what Amy quoted was factually incorrect.

6 - Several years ago my pastor told me something which had (and continues to have) a major impact on how I interact with others:

"You cannot and should not expect Christian behavior from non-Christian people."

If you are a brother Christian and I see you faltering; I will do my best point out your sin and help you repent -and I would expect you to do the same for me. This isn't so much JUDGEMENT as it is GUIDANCE.

If you are not a Christian, I have absolutely no right expect you to obey Christian principles or live your life in a Christ-like manner. I can pray for you, I can teach you (if asked), I can help you out and live my life as an example; but I cannot correct you.

Some Christians, sadly, do not understand that Jesus' Sermon on the Mount (specifically Matthew 7:5) should be treated as their "Instruction Book".

Along similar lines, it seems to me that many non-Christians (Rocky and several others here specifically EXCLUDED) believe that all Christians are intolerant, right wing assholes. To those of you who believe that, or who have been prothletized to against your will by well meaning (if misguided) evangelicals: please accept my apologies.

The idea of "saving" others tends to (paradoxically?) cause many Christians to behave in a most UN-Christ-like manner. (See my Thanksgiving blog post at { Link } for further examination of this topic).

I find it interesting to compare this thread with the "testimonial" thread { Link } . I haven't responded to that thread yet.

-Devin.

7 - The Old Testament has several stories about God causing horrific events because He judged one or more people and found them wanting. Some of the stories are pretty bizarre to me, like when He killed 70,000 people via a plague in Israel because King David pridefully ordered a census.

So Falwell does have a Biblical basis for saying that a nation can be punished for its sin. In my opinion, the mistake that Falwell constantly made was stating that he knew that a particular bad event was the result of God punishing us for a specific set of bad actions.

It's possible that God told Jerry this, but I'm betting that He didn't.

The Bible makes clear that sin is sin. There are no major or minor sins in the eyes of God. So to me the other mistake that Falwell made was singling out for criticism particular actions that he found objectionable and that he would never do while ignoring actions that are clearly sin that he and his followers might actually be guilty of on a daily basis.

But that's a mistake that a lot of us make, including myself.

8 - @7 Two wrongs do not make a right, but that assumes that I accept that judging is always a wrong.

It is absolutely clear to me that many Christians -- perhaps most -- do not actually consider judging others to be a wrong, so long as they are judging according to what they believe to be Christian standards as written in the Bible. As I am no expert on Christian theology, I will not say whether they are right or wrong in that interpretation. I will just note that there are plenty of analyses out there ({ Link } and { Link } for just two of the top hits) that justify that it's perfectly ok for Christians to judge, so long as they are righteous and not hypocritical about it.

If that's ok for Christians, as it seemingly is, then surely it's ok for me, too, so long as I too am righteous and not hypocritical about it. By whose standards should I measure my righteousness and hypocricy? I would prefer objective ones over Christian ones, but objective standards don't really exist, so we are left with my own standards -- or yours. You are certainly free to judge me. I may fall short on your standards -- or even my own, from time to time; but I would argue that most of the time I probably fall no farther short than most Christians, and I would challenge anyone to objectively prove otherwise.

And re Wonkette, I note that you have still not answered my simple question. I understand slant and spin, and I grant that Wonkette has a viewpoint and she expresses it throughout her writing... but again: exactly what part of Amy's quote is factually incorrect or even "spun"?

9 - @14 - We're a good bunch Rock!

@11 - Rich, it's perfectly fine to criticize Falwell. Although some of the vitriol immediately following his death is uncalled for, he certainly set himself up for this. He was criticized during his life and I'm sure he would have expected to be criticized at his death.

@12 - Like I've said, Falwell's sentiments weren't shared by a lot of Christians and he has probably overstepped the bounds of judging others.

@15 - Good points Timothy!

10 - Wow ... a bit too much hate for me with those two posts Amy and Richard. While I do not put myself into the evangelical category, you have to admire a man who had a passion and lived that passion. Yes, he said things that I did not agree with, but he said it with conviction and stood behind everything he said. He was a leader to many and those people will miss him. It marks a major change in the shape of politics. I will watch with interest to see who picks up in his place.

And come on Amy ... reading Wonkette is like reading Brian Jones' or Bob Sutor's blog on the OpenXML vs ODF issue ... both are so slanted to one side that you have to step back and make sure your looking at the entire story.

11 - Here's a couple of Falwell quotes. They seem judgemental, and not it a good way.

"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals."

On 9-11: "I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen."

I see some problems with the theology expressed here. First, Falwell is claiming to know God's thoughts and reasons for two major tragedies. I'd call that arrogant, at minimum. Second, Falwell's God has lousy aim. Innocents have died in both events he references. It's hard to understand this as the action of a just or loving God. Finally, I thought God had given up that Old Testament smiting stuff. I'd heard he had some kind of "New Deal" available.

12 - Thanks for putting this up here Rock. Here is a good article from another Southern Baptist that hit my Bloglines:

{ Link }

13 - What Amy said! The most generous things I can bring myself to say about Rev. Falwell is that at least he did not indulge in the delusion that he was qualified to hold public office himself, and he also managed to avoid the personal scandals that several of his colleagues in Holier-than-Thou-ness.

14 - Yes .. hate was the wrong word. Sorry. Judgment is much better.

@Rich - does it make it right that your judging back? Two wrongs do not make a right.

Also, there is a difference between reporting facts and spinning facts. You know that as well as I do. We have Wonkette on one side and folks like Debbie Schlussel on the other. I have both in FeedDemon. The only way to get the truth these days is to read info on both sides and come up with your own conclusion. Even network news is slanted one way or the other. I wish for the days of being able to separate news and commentary.

15 - @9: regarding your pet peeve, I was very careful to not say that the majority of Christians believe that judging is ok.

I said it is clear that many do; and I said "perhaps most", but that implies uncertainty. Indeed, I haven't taken a poll. I simply do not know. I do believe it's possible that it is a majority, but I don't assume it.

But this discussion is not about many Christians, or the majority. It's simply about one man -- one man who stood in judgment often, and whom it is therefore reasonable to assume did believe that it is ok for Christians to judge. And it is about whether or not it is reasonable for a critic to accept his own standards and thereby justify standing in judgment of him.

16 - Maybe we should just all work to abandon the idea of basing the decisions in our lives on what is "right" and what is "wrong" as defined by any one religion etc... and start treating those guidelines as "best practices". It's like writing code. You're not "wrong" just because you didn't follow the best practices guidelines, you're just not as close to the ideal as you could be.

When you deal in the black and white language of "right" and "wrong" you tend to become closed minded IMHO.

17 - @17 Devin - I don't think that atheists believe that all Christians are "intolerant, right wing assholes". Its more of a case of those who shout loudest, perhaps outgoing right-wingers such as Jerry Falwell, flavouring the opinion of Christians held by atheists. The Christians who sit back and take a "live and let live" approach don't really have any impact because of they way they are. Bit of a paradox there.

You also make a good point about not expecting people to behave how you do. I put forward the same viewpoint in a forum last year and got shot-down big time. However I still agree with you. If you expect everyone to behave how you want them to then you'll be very disappointed. This applies to spouses, partners, kids, countries and more. The trick is to learn how to deal with it in a way that doesn't involve taking some type of moral high-ground where "I'm right and you're wrong" based on X. X can be anything you like, the bible, because I'm smarter, because I'm richer, or just because I'm right.

18 - Yes, John, you're right - the hate that Amy accurately attributes to Rev Falwell really was too much.

Oh, you meant something else?

19 - He also said that 9/11 was our (the US') fault and we deserved it because we allowed abortions. As Wonkette ({ Link } said: "Over his long career as a vile televangelist building an empire of bigotry from the donations of poor people, Falwell has supported South African apartheid, called AIDS an invention of Jesus to punish gays, attacked Martin Luther King and U.S. civil rights, and blamed 9/11 on feminists and homosexuals."
(or are you not allowed to speak the truth when someone dies?)