« Update to the ND7.0.1 DbColumn/DbLookup 64K limit bug... | Main| Announcing Show n Tell Thursdays »

Let us move to informed criticism and civil discourse...

QuickImage   
Category
Bookmark : del.icio.us  Technorati  Digg This  Add To Furl  Add To YahooMyWeb  Add To Reddit  Add To NewsVine 

In the past few weeks there have been a couple of big bruhahas that have blown up in the Lotus blogosphere. First there was the whole Red Bull thing, followed by the Workspace VS Bookmarks discussion, and then the Notes sucks... no it doesn't spat heated up again. And the one thing that I left with from all of those discussions was a broad yet simple realization:

People are quick to criticize things of which they have little to no firsthand knowledge.

With regard to the "Notes sucks" discussions it is evident that the Notes Sucks camp hasn't seen the Notes client in years - mainly the R5 timeframe, when the Notes client did indeed suck. And the Notes Rocks people are no better - most of them haven't used Outlook/Exchange for years either, which is no better. On both sides they say the other side sucks, citing things that they are either parroting from others, or they are regurgitating items from their brief (and ancient) experience. The basic action is to scream accusations and negative claims of which they have little to no first-hand knowledge.

The same thing can be said of the Workspace VS Bookmarks people. Virtually all of the Workspace people haven't given the bookmark interface a chance since they were first introduced in R5 - and they sucked there (like the rest of that client). Sure, there are some people who have given bookmarks a good field test - they have tried to use them for an extended period of time, and have decided that they are not for them. Fine. But the rest of the workspace people who trash the bookmark interface without ever having used it are simply mimicing others with a "me too!" mentality.

The reality is that nothing - nothing - is as bad as the "other side" claims. All of these items have faults - no doubt. But all of them also seem to be serving their respective purposes, and all of them have their supporters - and detractors.

I have a suggestion - a request really. I propose that we stop the shrill "___________ SUCKS!" litany, and only speak of those things of which we have first-hand knowledge. Don't make blanket statements - give specifics.

Don't parrot the accusations of others - only speak of those things of which you have personal knowledge. And if you want to claim the Bookmark interface sucks, then use it, in the latest release (Notes 7),  soley for a month first. If you want to say Outlook blows, then use DAMO with the latest release of Outlook for a month first. And if, for whatever reason, you don't have the opportunity to use a product you are so eager to trash (such as Domino or Exchange), then feel free to cite the claims of others - but give attribution: "Well, I believe Exchange blows because Wild Bill said such-and-such about it, based on his first-hand experience."

I am just sick of seeing stupid arguments that are nothing more than claims based on last century's technology, or are simply arguments being parroted from others. It is a worthless and tiring conversation bordering on mental masturbation - and I refuse to participate in discussions that degrade to that level. Or, if I do, don't be surprised if I challenge your assertions with questions such as "Is this based on personal experience, or are you parroting someone else's claims?", "What version are you talking about? If you don't know (because you're simply repeating someone else), or the version you are speaking of is over 3 years old, go away."

I love civil discourse - but I love civil discourse when the participants are knowledgeable and are discussing things of which they have first-hand knowledge. Otherwise it is worthless.

Sorry for the rant, just had to get that off my chest. Your thoughts, as always, are welcome.

Rock
**I bet one legend that keeps recurring throughout history, in every culture, is the story of Popeye.~Jack Handey

Comments

1 - I agree religious debates are futile. Unfortunately, even if you do come armed with the facts, people will fall back on their prejudices and tell you the facts are wrong. I apologize for prolonging the "Notes Sucks" debate as much as I have. My mistake was believing facts trump lies.

BTW, "Show n Tell Thursdays" is a great idea!

2 - Some of the discussions you have listed like "Notes *****" evoke emotional reaction.

People tend to express what they feel rather than what they have analysed/understood.

You may argue that even to "feel" you need to have firsthand knowledge.

3 - Either I haven't been reading closely enough, or I'm missing something. I guess I haven't felt the same way about the discussions. I've viewed them as lively.



Now I wasn't a part of the bookmarks vs. workspace discussion (I prefer bookmarks) but maybe it's how we turned upon each other that soured people. I dunno.

One of the things I've valued most about this community is that it's not so much a "me too" thing. People disagree all the time. And quite frankly I'm thrilled to see as many people as possible responding to the "Notes sucks" posts. I like to see that we are being on the offensive and agressive with the FUD that permeates, but I do agree that we have to base it on fact and knowledge rather than emotion.

In the same token, let's not neuter the passion I'm seeing in the community. I'd hate to see that happen.

-Grey


4 - @Devin - I love you too

Rock

5 - I find it interesting that you post this. After analyzing the MS Analyzer a few weeks ago, it made me realize something. Why are we all fighting and throwing stones at MS and each other. Its almost like we are arguing and fighting for the sake of it. I also feel after Surjit empowering battle cry at the closing session that we all came away with a sense of battle. I do not think that this is the case but instead, stay the course, do our best at what we do and let the applications and systems we create speak for themselves. Honestly, Domino does not need anyone fighting for it. It is truly up to us to make it shine, but not to fight for it. That would show we have something to fear and quite honestly, I fear nothing as far as Domino/Workplace/Websphere goes. We have to be in it for the long haul.

Good post Rocky!!

6 - Rocky,

I totally understand your point of view here, and applaud you for making the statement. But (with an opening statement like that, you knew there'd be a 'but', didn't you ) I do wonder if you're being just a tad idealistic here. Nice as it would be to have a 'grown-up' debate about the various subjects that have been discussed recently, would it not also be just a bit boring too ?

One of the things that strikes me about the Domino community, and the aspect that makes it special, is that the 'members' really care. Not just on an intellectual level; although we know there are many, many such reasons for evangelising the product; but also on an emotional level. And, of course, that emotion sometimes clouds the intellectual judgement.

However, I'd rather the people driving the Domino product range forward, whether in terms of product development or market adoption, really cared about the product and the benefits it can bring to the customer. Because, in amongst all the "Microshaft Sucks" comments there will be someone prepared to go the extra mile to provide the Domino community's viewpoint. A great example is the sterling work Paul Mooney did on the MS Application Analyser.

The Domino community has something special about it (I believe). Be careful you don't wish it away.

Colman

7 - I agree totally with you, Rocky. I've always had a pet peeve on how a few vocal people can create a sense that the majority feel the way they do for whatever cause. Here's a very simple and harmless example. I'd seen posts in the Unofficial Lotusphere site that SeaWorld would be a lousy place for the Wednesday night party. I'd not been to SeaWorld since the last time we went with Lotusphere. I thought SeaWorld was a great place for the party. I love animal acts and I'd seen enough of Disney the last few years. Turtle granted my request and posted a poll asking opinions on SeaWorld after it was announced. Last time I checked, the poll showed a majority of people were in favor of SeaWorld.
I was a member of a charity board of people who decided where to spend funds. We donated some money to an animal shelter and we got a couple of angry responses. Now if you polled the folks who donated, they would be positive about our support for the animal shelter as was everyone on the committee.
I know if you polled my user base, they'd give Notes a positive result. For sure, you Rocky are great example of why Notes doesn't s _ _ _ !

8 - Yeah, but you're agreeing with me, so it's ok to post a "me too" post (just kidding).

I stated an opinion, and you share the same opinion - I think that's ok. And thanks for your support - I am glad to see I'm not the only one tired of all of this nonproductive (counterproductive) discourse.

Let's move on - and Bruce and I are cooking up an idea to help us do just that. Stay tuned...

Rock

9 - I agree a statement "xxxx sucks" without justification is bad.

I do believe that one of the things your posting reminds us of is that first impressions count. Some people, and that's a large number of people, will often give you one shot, miss that first shot and you're out. I think Workplace (the product not the brand) is still suffering from very bad first experiences.


10 - This thread sucks.



-Devin

11 - I tend to agree with you, but then again not. What you like, and dislike, will always be based of feelings, not too many facts.

But discussions at the level you mention, are totally worthless.

A challenge to discussion participants like that is to challenge them ever more that you say. Let them tell exactly what sucks about the other software. Then you will be able to come with facts about the products you like, or dislike...

12 - A wise man one said, "There's no excuse for bad manners." I wish I would adhere to that sentiment more consistently.

We're geeks. We know better. We know the value of objective measurement and critical thought. We know the danger of statements and decisions based on emotion rather than reasoned analysis.

But we're also people, and as such are wont to waves of emotion - especially when we feel a threat to something we hold dear.

So I will try to think twice and write once ...rather than writing multiple times as arguments mushroom to the point of excluding any semblance of reasoned discusion.

As an initial small step toward objectivity, I began this last week to actually use bookmarks - opened as Workspace. I'm giving it a month and we will see what happens. Could it be that I will join the Dark Side of the Schwartz and embrace that which I had once denounced?

13 - Great post, Rock, thanks for that.

I have been very absent from these discussions except for saying here or there, what I myself are using. And the feeling and opinion you are expressing here is just what I could say myslef just the same way. In my long time as an IT professional, I have seen this coming up with whatever technology you like to cite: CPM/80, Wordstar, DBase .... you name it, unfortunately this seems to happen regularily, with changing names of the products. In fact, there have been situations, that have been a lot worse than what we are seeing here: Not having a choice! At least, you may choose between Outlook and Notes or Thunderbird or Eudora, or you have a choise between bookmarks and workspace, so take, whatever fits best with your working customs. Interesting enough, whenever there was no alternative, I have not seen many people complaining about it...... remember the OS-wars? I once showed people, that there was almost no progress whenever there was only one OS to choose from. You may even see that, if you are looking at the frequency of new versions released .....

So again, thanks for this post, Rock.

14 - Back up your arguments with facts? Speak from experience and not ignorance? Dang, Rock, you're gonna take all the fun out of these geeky 'religious wars!'

I like your ideas in principle. I worry about their effectiveness, though, when the other side plays by a different set of rules. Consider the world of politics (because I know you pay attention): he who slings the most mud, be it supported or not, usually comes out ahead. So I like what you're saying, and I agree that we should try to behave that way. I worry that it may not be the *winning* strategy. But it is the most ethical strategy, and ultimately trading ethics and personal responsibility for victory is unworthy of us. So bravo. And Rock on...

PS One quibble: if it ever takes me a month to figure out whether a products rocks or sucks, I'm hanging up my keyboard. I get your point, you want more than a cursory look at things. I agree. But I can do that in a day, for a product I use as much as email. For the Domino Admin client, which I'm rarely in, I might take a week. For example, I tried bookmarks in 5 (they sucked), tried again briefly in 6.5 (they got better, but they still don't behave the way I want), and haven't tried in 7 yet (but only because I haven't tried 7 itself yet). But I will. And if they win me over, I'll say so in public. But don't hold your breath - I'm a tiny bit demanding...

15 - Best statement of the week Rocky.
It's very tough sometimes to not shout and scream "me too". I have done it in the past, but have tried to stop. Its not helping our community. The Lotus community is pretty much the smartest bunch of people I have ever met. We all have different opinions, and for the most part discuss them in a cathartic manner. It all helps us and anyone searching our sites to find educated facts. The recent articles posted about Lotus Notes... just beat them with facts. Link to true stories/sites that counter the FUD or the uneducated, biast opinions. If we keep slinging mud at some issues (although possibly deserved) we end up getting a bit dirty. Posts based on solid facts just cannot be argued. They can be discussed and debated... and that is great and for the most part, that makes for great reading. I now use Outlook client for my mail at home, tucked into my domino server (of course), and it has helped me no end in discussions with customers/peers/competitors. I know what it can and cannot do, what it is both good and bad at, and those guys just cannot argue with me. I got flamed myself about a month ago with pretty bad crap from an MS lover. I wont link my post now becuase I got pretty embarassed about letting it annoy me that much afterwards. My response was as non-productive as that person's comments. Im sticking to facts from now on - both technical, personal, user based and competitive, when I have something meaningful (and modern) to say.

16 - Yup. Good one!

---* Bill

17 - @7, Think Twice, Write Once. Brillant! You've just given us a new mantra for interacting on the web (or even writing code). I'll put it in big letters above my monitor.

18 - Ironic thought - was that a "me too" post???

19 - Great comments so far. Let me respond to those who think that this is a bit idealistic.

Yes, I am stating what should be - but, shouldn't we always strive for what should be? Additionally I don't think it is unrealistic to making a promise, if only to myself, to not jump into any "such-and-such sucks!" discussions unless I have something constructive and factual to add - and if I add an opinion that it be an informed opinion, not one soley based on third-party opinions that I am aping.

Hopefully that makes it a bit more clear.

Rock

Meet Rocky

Rocky Oliver
Rocky Oliver
If you see me at a conference, please stop me and say hi!

Calendar

Search

Categories

LotusGeek Tour 2008

DNUG08-2.png

Proudly Employed By

I am the Vice President of Products for TeamStudio

Our Corporate Blog

I am the Vice President of Products for TeamStudio

Thawte Notary

Thawte Web of Trust Notary

LOTUS GEEK gear

Social Networking


Add to Technorati Favorites

View Rocky Oliver's profile on LinkedIn

Rocky  Oliver

LotusGeek Blog Roll

Why display a blog roll when Planet Lotus does it so much better?

Dilbert

Buy my book!

Blog Buttons

Atheist - Unitarian - Humanist

Atheist Symbol

chalice_150.gif

Happy Humanist

Poker Players Alliance

This Site Designed By

YOU! If you would like to see your name and link here, read more about the Skin the Geek contest!