What is your "testimonial"?
Category Religion
Bookmark :
I have been an "out of the closet", publicly avowed atheist for many years. But I didn't start that way. Being Southern I was raised, as most people are down here, as an evangelical Christian - my particular flavor was Southern Baptist. I even attended a Christian school for 2.5 years (middle of 5th grade through 7th grade). One of the important tenets of Southern Baptists, and Christians in general, is the concept of a "testimonial" - an explanation of your faith and how you came to be a Christian. You are encouraged to share your testimonial as a part of "witnessing" to others in order to tell them about Jesus and (hopefully) "save" them.
I began to think about this, and realized that everyone - all of us - have a "testimonial". We all have a story of how we have come to believe the way we do. Some of us are still on the journey, and our testimonial isn't complete yet; while others amongst us are strong in our beliefs and convictions and, with the exception of some minor revisions along the way, our testimonials are pretty much complete.
Now I don't know about you, but I love to hear the testimonials of others - how, and more importantly why, people believe the way they do. I find these stories fascinating, and I have also found that often our stories are more alike than dissimilar, and the most fascinating part is how we can have common stories that wind up in such different places.
This blog has been a place of open, civil discourse even about the most controversial of topics - and this is something I have come to love. I thought it would be an interesting topic to provide a place for others to share their testimonials - their stories of the journeys to their current state of belief - without the fear of persecution. I would love to read your stories, andI think others would be interested as well. The only rules are that the discourse must remain civil, and while I encourage the asking of questions I will shut down any personal attacks immediately (I don't think it will happen, but I want to state that up front just in case). So, let me begin, and then you can share.
As I stated earlier I was raised as a Christian, a Southern Baptist. My mom is actually pretty accepting of other beliefs, but I was more influenced early on by the family of my step mom. She's the one that paid for me and my step sisters (at the time) to attend Forrest Hills Christian Academy. At that time I really "got into" being a part of this school and church. I manned a "prayer line" at times, I attended mission trips, I went to visitation, prayer service, and sunday services. I was a model young Southern Baptist.
But during this time I began to have a nagging questioning voice in the back of my head. The more I got into my activities the more I began to question why we did what we did. I kept suppressing this inner doubt, and talked to ministers about it, but I still had doubts.
In 8th grade I began a search on my own for my own answers. I spent hours in the library (remember, this was in the 1970s, the internet really wasn't available as a tool back then) researching the history of Christianity, and reading the beliefs and histories of other religions. The more I read, the more enlightened I became. Then when I was 15 I decided to give religion and faith one more chance. My friends and I would go each weekend to a different church/temple/synagogue to explore the rituals and services of others, experience first-hand the people in the church, and try to discover, first-hand, which place - if any - felt "right".
I continued my reading and studying, and my discussions with my friends, and around 16 I finally realized the truth - I am an atheist. I was still enthralled with the histories of religions, but I realized that I was more interested in those histories - the "why" people came to their beliefs - than I was in the religion itself as a path to enlightenment. The moment I finally admitted to myself that I was an atheist I felt that this was the "right" answer for me - I felt I was being honest with myself, and that this was who I was.
Some of my friends became more, shall we say, "aggressive" in their atheism - the lashed out at other faiths, specifically Christianity, and I felt that wasn't right either. I told them that just because we don't believe doesn't mean that others shouldn't believe - and that everyone had to find their own answers to what makes sense for them, and what makes them feel complete. I must admit though that I did feel some animosity towards some specific churches - there was one called Chapel Hill Harvester that was very aggressive in their recruitment of teens at my school, and they (I believe) brainwashed the teens into blindly following them in lockstep. They convinced a couple of my friends into burning their rock-n-roll records and Dungeons & Dragons books (one of my friends finally realized this was silly, and is now an atheist as well), and I felt that this place was a harmful place that taught hatred and not thinking for yourself over an exploration of faith. Incidentally the leaders of this church have been brought up on charges for various things over the years (Bishop Earl Paulk and his brother, to name a couple).
So, I spent my late teen and early adulthood as an atheist. I continued to read up on religious history, mainly Christianity, but I didn't attend any services or anything like that. Years later after I was married and had kids my wife and I realized that we needed to find someplace for us to attend. Why? Because we're still in the Deep South, and down here the second question you're asked is "what church do you attend?" after "What's your name?" Those who answer "I don't attend church" are often subjected to witnessing, aggressive questioning, etc. During our search for a church we could attend without feeling like hypocrites we found Unitarian Universalism. UU is a place where we can be whom we are, without feeling like hypocrites. UU is a place where our kids can learn about other religions objectively, and can have a sense of community as well.
So now I am a Unitarian Universalist, and an atheist. I even taught Sunday school as an open atheist, because that's acceptable as a UU. I am comfortable with who I am, and I feel that we are teaching our kids to respect other religions, to explore and learn on their own, and to find answers for themselves - and that their answers may be different than mine, and that's ok too. My kids have a healthy respect for other religions, and they understand what most of the other religions believe - so when they are exposed to it in school or with friends, it isn't "new" to them.
I also defend my Christian friends, quite aggressively, against others who attack them. Why? Because as a UU and a human being I believe that we all have the inherent right to explore our own path, find out own answers, and be able to believe as is right for us without fear of being attacked. And to this day the only time I have a problem with anyone is when they try to force their beliefs upon me and my family - and luckily the Christians I know agree with me that this is NOT the right way to do things.
And before you ask, yes I associate with many Christians (almost impossible not to in the US, ya know?) - and they all know I am an atheist. What I find is that all of the Christians I count as close friends have one thing in common - they hold a deep respect for the beliefs of others, and they all "live their faith" - they are all living testimonials to their faith, and their lives are good examples of what their beliefs are - they live their beliefs. Devin "Spanky" Olson is an example of this that you may know. Also one of my closest friends that I hang with locally is a devout Christian who listens only to Christian radio, is very involved in his church, and who really does live his faith. We have great discussions, and we have learned a lot from each other - and I believe he has a newfound respect for me as an atheist because I have shown him that you can be a "good", "just", and "moral" person without having a belief in a deity. I believe we are each better people because of our personal friendship, and the friendship of our families.
Well, that's the quick-and-dirty version of my story, my testimonial. What's yours?
Let the discussion begin...
Rock
**Ridicule is spoken fear fueled by ignorance. -- Rands









Blog Roll










Comments
So to clarify, the tactic of presenting two options and then showing that one of them is false and therefore the other must be true is only logically valid if you can first show that the two options are in fact the only options. (This can obviously be extended to x options showing x-1 are false, leaving 1 true.) If you have not done that then you have the logical fallacy known as False Dilemma.
Any argument that relies on a logical fallacy is not valid and in a formal debate would just get knocked out straight away. That people in general can be persuaded by arguments based on logical fallacies is a damning indictment of the levels of education in critical thinking in most of the world.
Please tell me you don't condone the use of logical fallacies when structuring a reasoned argument.
Posted by Kerr At 05:03:57 AM On 05/16/2007 | - Website - |
The statement "Jesus was either telling the truth or he was a lunatic." Does sound like it came from a lawyer. It's a logical fallacy; False Dilemma. There are other possibilities, for example, he could have been misinterpreted at source or things that he is meant to have said could have been mistranslated. This is of course assuming that he even existed.
Posted by Kerr At 05:40:04 PM On 05/15/2007 | - Website - |
Addendum - I think religion is like sex. I really don't give a hoot what you believe (or do in private) as long as you treat me and others with respect. My atheism informs my decision making process and ethics but it's not anybody else's business how I came to some position. I won't force my beliefs down your throat so don't stuff yours down mine.
Doug
Posted by Doug Finner At 06:26:02 AM On 05/16/2007 | - Website - |
studying history I began asking myself the simple question that if there are so many different faiths and if a person
is basically good how can that be wrong? Further study of how man added (ancient Romans) rules and certain pagentry
to Religion made me think that Religion was created by people to explain "things" that couldn't be explained. Pretty
darn close to denounced ancient pagan Religions. Nowadays I look at the Bible as example of how to live a good life
but not looking at it as the exact truth.
Posted by Tom At 10:25:13 AM On 05/16/2007 | - Website - |
Posted by Richard Schwartz At 07:54:16 PM On 05/16/2007 | - Website - |
I fully respect people who believe in <insert name of ghost here> AND put that belief into action where that action is to implement the requirements of their faith NOT to convert or condemn non-believers. My folks fall into this category and they do a world of good.
I keep hoping that organized religion will just collapse on its own but I'm thinking that most people are incapable of handling atheism - everything is in the hands of the individual and there is no higher authority to praise or blame for the things that happen in our lives. There is no reason for life, and we are here by chance. That scares the crap out of most people.
Go Brights: { Link }
Doug
(*) While this site picks on Christianity, this type of crud exists in every major religion's 'book'.
Posted by Doug Finner At 06:20:29 AM On 05/16/2007 | - Website - |
The argument that Jesus was "either a lunatic or telling the truth" is a common way of framing information to get agreement with your view. In this case the frame is that there are only two options, lunatic or truth. To get people to believe the intended message (truth) then all you need to do is disproved the lunatic option. In reality there are many possibilities beyond these two options but in terms of convincing people, the idea is to get them to agree with the first premise, that there are only two options, and then disprove the options you don't want. This is very common way of trying to persuade people.
@13 â The only problem I have with this approach is that the actions of the atheists and non-atheists and not independent of each other. The actions and decisions of one party do affect the other, think Iraq, abortion, KKK, prayer in school etc. The reality I see is that when issues come down to a majority vote, the actions of the losers of that vote will be dictated to by the winners of the vote. And I donât know of many people who like being dictated to. So while I do believe in live and let live, this only really applies up until the other party starts to impact my life.
Posted by Ethann Castell At 09:35:04 PM On 05/15/2007 | - Website - |
But while Jefferson's ideal is one that I believe in, it is difficult to live by. So long as there are those who believe that what building you visit on Friday, Saturday or Sunday or what supposedly learned leader you defer to on matters of faith matters, and so long as there are those who believe that they are compelled to try to influence you to adopt some set of beliefs rather than respecting your desire and right to make your own personal journey of discovery, there are sure to be conflicts.
Posted by Richard Schwartz At 10:19:16 PM On 05/15/2007 | - Website - |
Posted by Russ.Mayes At 08:55:54 PM On 05/15/2007 | - Website - |
No worries, pal. I "forgive" you.
Thanks for the mail.
Posted by Curt Stone At 01:50:26 PM On 05/16/2007 | - Website - |
Here's my testimonial:
"I said, I'm working on it... When was the deadline again?"
Posted by Philip Storry At 04:52:32 PM On 05/15/2007 | - Website - |
I went to a Lutheran school and grew up in a family where my parents were getting a divorce. I was fifteen.
I certainly had been brought up to love Christ and I went through the motions of going to Church and school, but never really felt a close relationship with God.
After football practice I would often stop by the Church and pray when no one was around. I had hoped that God would turn this situation around and all would be well.......my prayers were not answered.
I had just learned that me and my MOM were moving to some podunk town in Kansas and that I would be ripped away from everything I cared about.
The next day after an very hard day on the practice field (I got my a$$ handed to me several times that day at practice.
I was sitting on the steps with all the other football players and cheerleaders waiting for my Mom to pick me up from practice. It was loud..when football players and cheerleaders going trough puberty get together it is not quiet.
I had a blistering head ache and just wanted everyone to shut up. A peace came over me and everything was calm. I can't even describe how I felt...but I knew I was in the presence of God.
I was so focused on the presence of God I did not even hear the other kids and I don't even remember them getting picked up from practice. When my Mom pulled up everything came back into focus and I had a real comfortable feeling about me.
To this day when pray to God and really thank him for all the wonderful gifts he gives me. I get that same feeling. Yes I love God he has made me the man I am today.
Even when I don't act like a man of God, he always seems to be there to pick me up and let me know he loves me.
Like all people I have had good times and bad times, but God is always there reminding me that I belong to him.
I am an IT person at a University surrounded by atheists, I keep hoping they can have a relationship with God.
I will hope for you also.
Posted by ChildofChrist At 08:57:00 PM On 06/16/2007 | - Website - |
I fully respect people who believe in <insert name of ghost here> AND put that belief into action where that action is to implement the requirements of their faith NOT to convert or condemn non-believers. My folks fall into this category and they do a world of good.
I keep hoping that organized religion will just collapse on its own but I'm thinking that most people are incapable of handling atheism - everything is in the hands of the individual and there is no higher authority to praise or blame for the things that happen in our lives. There is no reason for life, and we are here by chance. That scares the crap out of most people.
Go Brights: { Link }
Doug
(*) While this site picks on Christianity, this type of crud exists in every major religion's 'book'.
Posted by Doug Finner At 06:03:32 AM On 05/16/2007 | - Website - |
In high school, I knew a kid who was an atheist. At the time, I just couldn't understand how he could rule out the existence of a higher being - something had to be the root cause of everything.
I went off to college majoring in chemistry and had the chance to begin to understand that there doesn't need to be any higher being; it's possible for humans to figure out the 'how' to most anything.
That left the 'why'. Biology has taught me that the meaning of life is - life. The double helix demands reproduction. The reason ants exist is to make more ants. Same for roses and scorpions and roaches. And humans. We exist to make more. I fully ascribe to the idea that the first life was a total accident - chemicals formed, reproduces and that was that.
What we DO with the life we're given is up to us. I think people find atheism hard to stomach because the responsibility for EVERYTHING belongs to ME. I can't blame any god for my choices and screw-ups or successes. It's all me. Scary stuff for most folks.
I keep hoping that institutional religion will self implode but I'm not thinking that's gonna happen any time soon.
Go brites! ({ Link }
Posted by Doug Finner At 07:44:46 PM On 05/15/2007 | - Website - |
Richard,
Great quote!
I believe Thomas Jefferson got this notion from the words in the Bible. I'm no Bible scholor so I did a quick Google and found this quote in Bible.com.
"The Bible makes this emphasis. For example, John wrote, âBut whoever has the worldâs goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truthâ (1 John 3:17,18). If we say we love another believer but let him go on suffering when we have the ability to relieve his suffering, we donât love him at all. Our actions contradict our words, and actions speak louder than words."
@12 Now that you mention it, I believe the speaker or my Pastor did credit C.S. Lewis with this arguement.
@9 I can assure you that the rest of the presentation explored the other possibilities like whether historically Jesus existed or if he was mis-quoted. The ending arguement after investigating the other possibilities is that he's either crazy or who he says he is.
The best record other than the Bible is a Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus. He wrote about Jesus in this way in the 1st century "About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, for he was a performer of wonderful deeds, a teacher of such men as are happy to accept the truth. He won over many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the leading men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him at the first did not forsake him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day.'
I find it hard to believe that St. Peter or St. Paul would walk half of the ancient world preaching the teachings of Jesus at risk of death on words they misinterpreted. To me, they too are lunatics or brainwashed or whatever you want to categorize it as or they're speaking the truth.
Didn't mean to get into a debate. I just find the history of the religion interesting too. I'm surpised of all the Atheist's. I may be in the minority as a Christian Domino developer.
In light of Jerry Fallwell's death, I've never understood the bad treatment and exclusion of gay people or others. Jesus was very clear in his love for everyone and his commandment for us to love others.
Posted by Curt Stone At 09:24:19 AM On 05/16/2007 | - Website - |
Posted by Tom At 10:06:44 AM On 06/10/2007 | - Website - |
Thanks for sharing the link! It was an interesting story and another part of the world and history that I didn't know much about. It does bum me out when I read about how "Faith" and war go together so well.
Posted by Tom At 08:03:47 AM On 06/19/2007 | - Website - |
Posted by Mika Heinonen At 06:25:36 PM On 05/16/2007 | - Website - |
I had a very negative experience when I was fairly young, maybe 7 or 8, in which I was put under the gun to make a statement of faith without my parents' consent or knowledge and since that time have a hard time trusting church 'leadership'.
I am tempted to claim that I am more of a deist...but seems like a cop-out of not wanting to claim theism or atheism. I can convince myself that there must have been a 'guiding hand' in the establishment of all that surrounds us...regardless of the vast amount of time it still all seems too coincidental to have occurred randomly and all on its own...but the idea of a Creator that is monitoring our daily progress just seems silly, or worse very egomaniacal.
I too try my best to be respectful of others regardless of their personal convictions...most likely because I am in such a state of flux with my own.
Posted by Andy Broyles At 01:21:51 PM On 05/15/2007 | - Website - |
"virtually all atheists want to believe in a higher power, because it would make things so much easier."
In my experience atheists are perfectly happy with there not being any gods. No need to worry about which of those capricious masters might spite me down for not following their perfect word. No need to live life in fear of eternal damnation. I can live my life safe to the full, here and now, knowing that this is the only shot I've got; best make the most of it. No need to suffer this life as some sort of trial to be overcome, hoping that feeding the coffers of fat priests will buy me a seat at the banquet on the other side.
No thanks, we're better off without them.
P.S. Theist is the correct term for someone that believes in some form of higher power.
Posted by Kerr At 02:27:26 PM On 05/17/2007 | - Website - |
Posted by Steve McDonagh At 08:43:46 PM On 05/31/2007 | - Website - |
We met briefly at ILUG in Dublin last week. I didn't get a chance for more than a "hello" as you were in great demand
Right... Back on topic .... the above was a very interesting read, so interesting I thought I would throw my hat in the ring too.
I was born and raised in the bit of Ireland "run" by the UK and over which various factions have been fighting for many many years. I do not want to appear to be blaming "The Troubles", on religion but.. and it is a big but.. raw naked sectarianism did fan the flames for 30 odd years and still flickers in the background to this day. Over here you were either a Prod (Protestant) or a Taigue (Roman Catholic) there was no fence to sit on, no middle ground. Profess yourself as an atheist and you would be asked .. is that a Prod or a Taigue atheist?
My parents, although Christian, never forced their beliefs on me and allowed and encouraged me to seek out and experience other faiths. I must admit I was slow on the uptake. I have investigated more in the last 10 years than in the previous 37. I have even had a look at Zoroastrianism and Baha'i .. As of today I am still looking to find a hook to hang my spiritual hat on. Class me as an evangelical agnostic spreading the good news of "not being sure"
I pointed out to a local "god botherer" the other day when he came knocking on my door hopeful of saving my soul that I was less of an atheist than he was. He definitely, when questioned, did not believe in 99.99999999999999% of the other gods available on the planet. Brahman to him was an exotic fairy tale, Allah a heresy and Ahura Mazda a type of Korean Car. Since I on the other hand simply don't know, I would put myself as a 50/50 atheist as I could potentially go either way or for that matter go deist and embrace them all. This gentle and polite (I was in a good mood that day) argument was answered by "Are you sure you are not a Catholic?"
Plus ca change,plus c'est la meme chose as our French neighbours are prone to shrug when faced with this sort of deep ingrained intransigence.
So from a dyed in the wool fire breathing agnostic whose only real tenet of faith is **lets be nice to each other and celebrate our differences** I wish you all gra, dilseacht, cairdeas agus Slainte
which in english is Love,Loyalty Friendship and Health
and is pronounced graw, deel-shockt, korr-djass agus slawn-ch
Steve McDonagh
PS Can i recommend a damn good read "The Story of God" by Robert Winston. A BBC book but none the worse for that.. there is an extract on the web here { Link }
Posted by Steve McDonagh At 08:42:44 PM On 05/31/2007 | - Website - |
I would probably also classify myself as an atheist. I grew up in New Zealand and did not attend any church, although I had some close friends who were really into it. The church in NZ, and in fact many other countries, does not seem to be so all-encompassing as it does in the US. However I have come to believe that many western societies are permeated with Christian ideals and that simply growing up in one of those societies indoctrinates people into those ideals to a greater or lesser degree. An example of this is the importance, and for some an obsession, with being good. This is a strong Christian ideal that many non-Christians hold on to dearly as well.
Personally, Iâve tried on several different "hats" of spiritual belief and none of them really fitted me that well. Most of them are simply different ways to deal with several big topics such as:
Death - I don't want to die so tell me why I won't die.
Inequality - why are some people better off than I am?
Acceptance - accept your life because you rewards will come later (next lifetime, heaven etc)
Random events - why did this happen to me? Tell me this is part of a grand plan.
Purpose - give me a reason to live, tell me that my life is significant.
Like you, I've spent a lot of time talking to people about religions and "discussing" the pros and cons. And I've spent more than enough time being angry when I saw people that I thought were people brainwashed into having a mindset. But I've come to believe that everyone has beliefs and everyone is brainwashed. While you can change them, you can't get rid of them, you can't get away from being brainwashed in one away or another.
On a related note, I see that Buddhism, or Buddhist-like beliefs, are becoming more popular in many parts of the world. A big part of this is due to its teaching of tolerance which is especially relevant as the world becomes more of a multi-cultural soup. I think that people also see a lot of religious-based conflict and wars, and want a non-violent alternative. The Dalia Lama is visiting Australia soon and his events have been booked out. Here in Brisbane they booked a second venue to stream the video feed of the live event, and that venue booked out as well.
Thanks again for your share.
Posted by Ethann Castell At 03:19:02 PM On 05/15/2007 | - Website - |
@Carl (1) - interesting that your family sent you to different churches, etc. as you grew up because that is very similar to Unitarian Universalism. In fact one of the classes I taught is called "Neighboring Faiths", and it is for 7th graders. It is a culmination of what they've learned in previous years about the UU 7 Principles and other religions. In Neighboring Faiths we would spend one Sunday talking about a religion, say, Roman Catholicism - and then the next week we would actually attend a Catholic mass at a nearby church. We did this with the church's knowledge - they knew we were coming, and they would provide a person after the service so that our students could ask questions about what they saw, about their religion, etc. During my year we went to a Catholic mass, a Hindu temple, a Native American Sweat Lodge, a Reform Jewish temple, a Greek Orthodox cathedral, and more - to name a few. It was a great class, and we all learned a great deal - and learned to more deeply respect and have an appreciation for these "neighboring faiths".
@Andy (2) - I completely understand your "flux". I believe one of the hardest things we can do as intelligent, sentient beings is decide what the right spiritual answer is for ourselves - especially if we're leaning towards the atheist answer. As humans we want things to have a "tidy" explanation - and we find it hard to accept the answer of "I don't know", such as "I don't know how the universe started." That answer doesn't sit well with many humans, and so we use a deity to fill in those unanswered questions. This type of belief system is known as the "god of the gaps" - god is used to fill in the gaps in our knowledge. That's where Thor (god of Thunder), Ra (Sun god), etc. came from, in early human cultures. We still have unanswered questions to this day - how did we get here? what is our purpose? what happens to us when we die? is this really it? And the current pantheon of deities that humans worship answer these questions. Incidentally, deism has always been a popular answer
@jonvon (3) - I cannot WAIT for your answer
@Ethann (4) - You're right - Western society is very influenced by Judeo-Christian values and beliefs. And I don't think this is a wholly bad thing. Many of the tenets of these faiths are valuable - the golden rule, turn the other cheek, love your neighbor as yourself - these are all valuable to society. As for brainwashing, I understand where you're coming from - but I also take a slightly different tack on it. I think that there are some people who "need" what religions offer more than others - almost like hardwiring. So, there are some that would truly suffer without the things religion offers them, and in that sense religions are not bad. Religions become bad when they influence our guide their followers to invade the rights and lives of others, from legislating morality to declaring holy jihads.
@Russ (5) - we call people who are Christian/Easter attendees "CEOs" - Christmas Easter Only
@Curt (7) - I understand that, and I actually have enjoyed the Lutheran services I have attended. I also know you happen to worship in the church of the Blues, so I know your heart is in the right place
@Kerr (8) - You and I are very similar in our thoughts.
@Rob (10) - My wife was raised Catholic as well, and has a similar story as yours. I have found that Catholics in general (and yes, this is a generalization) seem to have a harder time "letting go" than (prior) members of other religions. Maybe it is the whole "Catholic guilt" thing; maybe it is the sense of loss of leaving the comfort offered in the structure of Catholicism. I don't know. But the ex-Catholics I know struggle at times with their leaving the church; others suffer a great sense of anger, which could be a wholly different discussion
OK, my responses are taking WAY too long. I have answered 10 so far, I'll come back in a bit to get the others.
Later!
Rock
Posted by Rock At 11:02:48 AM On 05/16/2007 | - Website - |
My parents always had us in a church somewhere. I remember going to Methodist and Nazarene churches as a child. Then when I was about 11 we started going to a Southern Baptist Church. I came to faith in Christ at 13 and haven't looked back since. Have there been problems? Sure. Have I questioned? Not much, but everyone questions their faith sometimes. Have other Christians failed to be "Christ followers" in my life? Of course. I went to a Baptist college here in SC. Do I believe 100% in the Baptist Faith and Message? Probably not. But when I relocate soon (oops did I give out a hint as to my upcoming news...
But I do try to live my life as a Christian. You all know that I'm very open about this. But I've never been one to bang a Bible over someone's head (unless they really needed it...)
"Respect" for the beliefs of others is a fine line. While Paul was in Athens, he saw that there were many religions - even one to "an unknown god". He affirmed that they were a very religious group, but he went on to tell reveal to them the nature of this "unknown god".
{ Link }
Did Paul allow that they were right in worshiping these other gods? I don't believe so. Did he respect them and just tell them his beliefs (that he died for)? Most definitely and they were willing to hear him out on subsequent occasions. Do I "respect" the beliefs of others? Of course!! I see that there are many atheists in the Lotus community. Like Curt said, I feel like I'm in a small minority here. But that's OK. Most of you don't agree with me either, but that's OK too.
I've read through all 22 previous comments - whew... Good stories here and it appears that Christians are in a minority as readers of this blog. Years ago I began going through a list of 302 "contradictions" in the Bible. I started wading my way through them and got through about 10% of them. They are here: { Link } I have found that, for the most part, the issues were either with numbers being different in some books of the Jewish Bible or simply with people not reading the context. That's been seen here when people have misquoted CS Lewis. The options from "Mere Christianity" were that Jesus was "either Lord, liar, or lunatic". And I don't like how that seems to be the only thing mentioned of with that book. It is a wonderful book telling us how to live out what Jesus taught in what's known as "The Sermon on the Mount". The majority of Lewis' book is a vibrant commentary on how we should follow the teachings of Jesus as laid out in Matthew 5-7.
Posted by Chris Whisonant At 11:26:17 AM On 05/16/2007 | - Website - |
Couldn't agree more....
sadly it is as true today as it was back in the old testament.
A marionite christian Pierre Gemayel , founded the lebannese "phalanx" after a visit to Hitler's 1936 olympics This Phalanx or "Phalange" as it was known as essentially the "catholic party" in Lebannon.They achieved notoriety in 1982 by conducting the massacres at Sabra and Chatilia. Allegedly this was done acting under the orders of the then General Sharon of Israel. If true, which it seems it is, a Jew collaborating with a fascist seems abhorrent enough but it seems that a common enemy is sufficient for these temporal representatives of a heavenly authority to collude in an act of pure evil. Even now (25 years later) the only memorial to those innocents killed is a pile of building blocks.... it it any wonder the world is a F**ked up place.
see { Link } for a BBC story in 2002 or { Link }
for the CNN/Reuters view.
I was in South Carolina recently and was playing a friend a song by a North African Tuaraeg band called Tinariwen and I was accosted by a man and his wife who accused me of sympathy with "rag heads" and "..what was I as a white christian listening to that crap for?" Tinariwen sing songs of desert life,love and "ordinary" things and while not everyone's cup of tea deserve at least a listen. Alas this cut no ice with the SC'ian and his wife. As the current war on the other side of Africa was sanctioned in popular belief if not in fact ,by the fact that god told the president bush that it was a good thing...I was by inference a supporter of the "other side" which in purely geographic terms is a bit like blaming Canadians for Mexican music...Plus ca change plus c'est la meme chose <sigh>
Posted by Steve Mc Donagh At 05:29:46 PM On 06/10/2007 | - Website - |
There is a common misconception that atheists, in general, have faith that there are no gods and that they are closed to any evidence to the contrary. This is not correct. The atheist view is that since there is no compelling evidence and therefore no reason to add a deity into our understanding of the universe. In fact the universe pretty much looks like you would expect if there werenât any gods. It's not the case that atheist believe that it's impossible for there to be gods.
This is directly analogous to the scientific method. The rigours of examination of data that science forces on its examination of the natural world give us good grounds to believe in the consensus view. That is not to say that the consensus view is sometimes incorrect, but that is corrected over time as new theories are presented and become established. The scientific community is often criticised for being closed minded, but the reality is that it is just cautious and ultimately reserves its top accolades for those who present new theories and explanations of the universe. They just need to show that the work stands up to examination.
So atheists are generally open to being presented with good evidence of the existence of a god, we just don't have any. I think what frustrates theists is that arguments that they find compelling and obvious just fall down for atheists under critical examination. Atheists see these flawed arguments time and again, dismissing them. This gives the impression that atheists arenât open to the idea, but that is incorrect. It's like scientists dismissing zero point energy devices. If you have an extraordinary claim you need to present extraordinary evidence before it's even worth taking a closer look.
As touched on before it's also not correct to assume that because someone is an atheist they are lacking in morals or concern for our fellow man. Secular humanism has a great deal to say about how we should live our lives and interact with people in such a way that is for the benefit of our own wellbeing and for the wellbeing of society in general. None of this requires the existence of gods although it can be informed by seeing how certain patterns of behaviour espoused by religious groups can be beneficial or indeed detrimental. I would certainly say that I lead a life that is, in general terms, "good".
Posted by Kerr At 07:28:01 AM On 05/17/2007 | - Website - |
Personally, for the past 25 years (out of 40) I have gone back and forth along a cycle of atheist, deist, pagan and back again. I have been an atheist for the last several years - that may change tomorrow, though, because the one constant in life is change. I was raised as a traditional Roman Catholic. My mother is the church choir director, and I sang with her from the age of 6 (I still sing with her sometimes when she needs my voice). The upshot of that is that I attended more Masses before the age of 16 than most Catholics have attended in their entire lives. I went to a Catholic Jr-Sr high school (6 years), I sang in the school's Music Ministry (7 Masses per Holy Day, woo!), I taught CCD (Catholic religious education classes), and I attended a Catholic college. I took religion classes all 6 years of high school, usually focused on Catholicism but also going into detail on the various Protestant faiths and their history.
[aside: I live in the Northeast, where there are many more Catholics than members of any other religion, which might be why I have a bit of an issue with the way the term Christian has been redefined in American society. Or maybe its because I'm a nit-picky jerk. To me, a Christian is one who believes that Jesus was the Christ. Period. So Catholics are certainly Christians. Mormons are Christians, too. Baptists, Episcopalians, Congregationalists, Lutherans, Methodists, and members of many other faiths are also Christian. It always bugs me a bit to see the term Christian used to denote *only* fundamentalists.]
I was a pretty devout Catholic until I was about 16. At that point I was taking a religion class that challenged my assumptions about my faith, and for the first time in my life I actually *thought* about it. Prior to that, I had done what most people do - I believed what my parents had originally taught me to believe. Since I have a very pragmatic, practical brain, I had a lot of trouble with the inconsistencies between the various books of the Bible (I am aware that there are various possible ways to explain them, and I'm not passing judgment on any particular explanation, but for me the explanations don't work). I also had trouble with the Church's history, and the more I found out about how certain policies had been decided, the more disillusioned I became. Once I began to really listen to the Mass and think about what the Church said, there were many cases where I found accepted doctrine to be completely inconceivable (and yes, I know what that word means, Princess Bride fans...).
Once I started to question, I discovered that the Christian faith didn't make sense to me (I don't mean that I don't understand it, or that Christians are somehow worse than members of any other faith or those with no faith - just that it doesn't make sense to *me* to believe in Jesus). I investigated other religions, but soon realized that many of my issues are inherent in organized religion itself. That, combined with the fact that I ultimately decided God (either) doesn't exist (or is either an absent landlord or embodied by the universe itself, depending on where I am in my own personal cycle of faith or lack thereof), made me look carefully at pagans, wiccans, deists, agnostics, and atheists.
One reason why I'm an atheist most of the time is that in my psychology, history, religion, and sociology courses in college I learned that religion is the primary mechanism by which humans explain things we don't understand or are afraid of. Many ancient polytheistic faiths had specific gods or goddesses for the sun, the ocean, the underworld (death), the moon, etc. We don't need religion to explain the phases of the moon anymore, so you aren't going to find the explanation of that as a core tenet of a modern religion. We DO still fear and fail to understand death, so that is prominently featured in every religion I know of.
Freud said that religion is a crutch, and while I don't presume to speak for anyone else I did come to realize that FOR ME that was a pretty accurate statement. I used to rely on religion to answer difficult questions for me, and I have since made a conscious choice to stop doing that.
I find that the most difficult thing about living side-by-side with devout believers, aside from those who try to foist their beliefs upon me (not really a problem now that I'm a grownup, more of one when I was in school), is the idea Kerr mentioned above (@8) about how non-believers can't possibly have morals. I find that an astonishing and incredibly insulting premise, and I also think it's a very dangerous idea. After all, if people who don't share your faith can't have morals, then it isn't much of a stretch to consider them evil (from amoral to immoral is how far?) and from there to start hating them.
I also find that it is incredibly disheartening to read that the vast majority of Americans wouldn't vote for an atheist as President. Fewer people would vote for an atheist than would vote for an openly gay man or woman, as well as any racial minority. Even among the unpopular, atheists aren't welcome. Anti-atheist attitudes are the most accepted form of bigotry in the US these days. That is, frankly, appalling (as is the idea that someone would refuse to vote for a gay man or a hispanic one, make no mistake), and I think it is related to the idea that atheists can't be moral people.
Posted by Rob McDonagh At 07:09:22 PM On 05/15/2007 | - Website - |
Events occurred in my childhood, I won't get into details, but they were of sufficient impact to make me question my faith, or anyone's, for that matter.
My whole life I've been seeking a place that felt "right".
I have finally found one, but it was a really long tough slog to get there.
It's a non-denominational Bible chapel, created and supported by the local community. The love and the joy are definitely there, and for me that's what it's all about.
Jonvon & I have been having interesting discussions about faith off & on for a while now. Recently I told him about a dream I had that pretty much sums up what I believe. The following is an excerpt from that conversation:
"I still think that God, and the entities of Sacred Space, and even man and earth and sky and all the things and un-things are all part of the same continuum. We are all connected, but not just man to man or man to earth. I believe it goes waaayyy beyond that. I had a dream one night. Everything was black. We (mankind) were each little dots of light in the black, but there were thousands of other dots too, that I just KNEW were not mankind. But they were there. And there were threads of light, connecting it all together. Beams everywhere. Like a 'light' spiderweb, connecting all to all. In my dream, I asked why, if I could see everything, why couldn't I see God. My dream answered that I was looking at God. And then in my dream I woke up, and the threads were still there between everything and everything. Even in the daylight I could still see them, faintly shimmering. And there were threads that connected things to things I couldn't see. They were out of my perception but we were still connected.
That, if you want my definition of my faith, is what I believe. I serve the light because we are all connected and what affects you affects me (true, it's selfish in a way, but it also serves others in a positive way so the outcome isn't bad). I serve in love and I serve in joy. I'm not just serving God, I'm serving Godkind. Everyone. I'm serving all of the things I can know and all of the things I can't know. Seen and unseen. "We are all in Him and He in us".
After that dream, I finally think I understand what that means. We are God. But God is more than just us.
I feel that man isn't. We are not substance, or rather our substance is illusion. That part has no value. There's another part that is much more valuable and it's related to that connective tissue between everything and everything. Maybe it's what the soul really is. In which case, the soul is God too. "All in all", baby."
There.
My testimony.
Posted by ChangeWarrior At 05:38:14 PM On 05/18/2007 | - Website - |
Please form an orderly queue to "kick the newbie"
Posted by Steve mcDonagh At 08:46:55 PM On 05/31/2007 | - Website - |
I definitely wasn't referring to logical reasoning or intelligent debate. The start of the language pattern contains the presupposition of either lunatic or real as being the only possible options. Once the listener accepts the statement, it then it forms a mental frame based around there being only two options. The speaker then only has to disprove the lunatic part so the listener can "learn" that real is the only valid answer of the two. This is an old debating tactic.
The point I was making is that most people won't stop and say hang on a minute, real and lunatic aren't the only options, there are many more options. If they did that, and challenged the speaker, then the persuasion technique disintegrates.
This is probably getting off topic a little but very interesting to me.
Posted by Ethann Castell At 08:10:24 AM On 05/16/2007 | - Website - |
Posted by Chris Whisonant At 10:57:18 AM On 05/17/2007 | - Website - |
"I never told my own religion, nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed. I have ever judged of the religion of others by their lives, and by this test, my dear Madam, I have been satisfied yours must be an excellent one, to have produced a life of such exemplary virtue and correctness. For it is in our lives, and not from our words, that our religion must be read."
Posted by Richard Schwartz At 09:05:01 PM On 05/15/2007 | - Website - |
Posted by Chris Whisonant At 01:25:12 PM On 05/16/2007 | - Website - |
I can't explain Robert Cray and his talent other than saying "God given talent." I was blown away by his vocals and guitar playing. For me, being in Disney World in the middle of winter, being at the best technical conference, hanging with some great/talented people, hanging with the author of the Domino Bible and being 6 feet from a blues guitar god, now that's a "religious experience". I'm not sure how I top that other than when I die I want there to be an outdoor concert with Bob Marley, Jerry Garcia and John Lennon and I've got back stage passes.
@24 Chris
I apologize for my lack of Christian knowledge as I'm just a beginner. I sort of baited you into the discussion as I knew you'd have insightful info. Thanks for the name of the C.S. Lewis book. I'll look into it. Hurry up with your news!
Posted by Curt Stone At 01:17:18 PM On 05/16/2007 | - Website - |
I'll get to the rest of y'all later on.
Thanks again for sharing, everyone!
Rock
Posted by Rock At 03:06:26 PM On 05/19/2007 | - Website - |
What I can write down:
-I too had that "what church do you go to" question a lot when I lived in Georgia, and was just as uncomfortable with it.
-Thanks for the explanation of witnesses and testimonials, I'd heard of them but didn't really know what they are.
-IMHO, self righteous and fundamental anything is bad. The only 2 times I've really been seriously lied to and stolen from in business, it was by very pious born-again Christians.
-Athiests can be just as self-righteous. Penn Gillette is especially obnoxious about trashing other's beliefs....
-Defining what you are and what you know in absolutes seems to be a very American thing. Most other societies I've experienced make more room for people to be unsure.....
-"So much blood has been shed by the Church because of an omission from the Gospel: "Ye shall be indifferent as to what your neighbor's religion is." Not merely tolerant of it, but indifferent to it. Divinity is claimed for many religions; but no religion is great enough or divine enough to add that new law to its code."
- Mark Twain, a Biography
Posted by Brian Benz At 09:21:44 PM On 05/16/2007 | - Website - |
Years later, when my first child was born, they discovered he had meconium in his lungs. I won't go into details, but that was the hardest day of my life as I watched them pound on my son to try to get stuff out of his lungs, as I watched him struggle to breathe ("grunting" they called it) as I had to tell my wife they were taking him to the NICU. I prayed that day out of desperation. It's sort of a pathetic way to start, I still believe. But for reasons that I can't really explain, that faith that I grasped at in the hospital stuck. I can't say I don't still have doubts, but even amid the doubts, I have faith.
Like the friends you describe, I try to live my faith. I saw some youtube spots that were based on the "I'm a PC/I'm a Mac" ads that said instead "I'm a Christian/I'm a Christ Follower." I try to be a Christ Follower. Most days I fail. But as Samuel Beckett, one of my favorite atheists, says, "No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better."
Posted by Russ.Mayes At 03:57:55 PM On 05/15/2007 | - Website - |
{ Link }
Great story!
Posted by Coming Out Godless At 12:33:26 PM On 04/09/2008 | - Website - |
Posted by jonvon At 01:45:26 PM On 05/15/2007 | - Website - |
@Doug (11) - I think that is fantastic that you had that type of exposure and example to live by in your parents. That is so rare these days. And I do agree regarding the "weight" it is to bear when you're an atheist. Most non-atheists (theists?) don't realize that virtually all atheists want to believe in a higher power, because it would make things so much easier. It would offer an explanation for all things that can't be explained, it would give you someone to hand all your problems to, it would give you a "last shot" at solving your worst problems (Divine Intervention), and when things were really bad you'd have someone to blame. But our thought processes, our "wiring" (or at least mine) just want let me believe. I can't overcome the leap of faith required to suspend disbelief and accept what doesn't make sense. As for institutional religion self-imploding, not gonna happen.
@Rich (13) - I am a huge fan of Thomas Jefferson - at least his writings and viewpoints. We UUs claim him as one of our own as well. And while this statement would lead you to believe he didn't discuss religion, the opposite is true. Granted, he was selective in his discussions, but he did give religion considered thought, and he discussed it in letters and conversations. The biggest "work product" that came from his thoughts on religion is the "Jeffersonian Bible" (I have a copy). It is basically the words of Jesus, boiled down, without all of Paul's slant in there. Good stuff - give it a read sometime, if you haven't already
@Ethann (13) - well said.
@Richard (15) - And while that is an ideal, it isn't reality - at least not down here in the Deep South. You are constantly judged by the church you attend, the profession of faith (and down here it is NOT considered rude to ask what church you attend, etc.), etc. So that's why I felt it necessary to a) give my kids an "answer" to that question that is easy for an elementary school kid, and b) I wanted to prepare them with knowledge of what they'll see, what they'll hear, etc. and I wanted them to be able to understand it, and c) I wanted them to have this knowledge so that they can interact with other kids in this culture and not feel "weird" or alienated; I also wanted them to be able to even attend a friend's church service (happens all the time) and not feel like they don't know what's going on. I want them to be strong in who they are, and UU has given my kids this.
@Kerr (16) - I used to be an "aop" (assistant operator) of the #atheism channel on DALnet (IRC). If you want to debate religion, call your channel #atheism
@Doug (17-19) - Yep, your "You can believe what you want as long as you don't infringe on me, my property, or my rights" idea (I paraphrased) is exactly my thoughts on the matter - which is why I also consider myself a "practical" libertarian. ("practical" because there are some ideas in libertarianism, like abolishing the military, which are ludicrous and unrealistic).
@Curt (21) - You said "I'm surprised of all the atheists. I may be in the minority as a Christian Domino Developer." I don't think so - I find that while you're partially right, there are many atheist/agnostic developers, I was surprised at how many Christian developers there are. And even more interesting is that many, many of the Christian developers I have met are very, very devout in their beliefs. IOW either they are atheists, or they are very committed to their religious faith. I'm sure we could have fun analyzing the reasons for that...
@Tom (22) - good way to look at it.
OK, that's enough responses for now. I'll come back in a bit and finish my responses up. Till then, keep writing - this is fascinating!
Rock
Posted by Rock At 10:53:54 AM On 05/17/2007 | - Website - |
I dated this girl, though, who was Episcopalian. I started attending church with her and her daughter, and was confirmed. We broke up, but I kept going. Then I met another girl, who was a professed witch, and she got me out of the habit of going. We got married, and I was a reader of the Bible, but not much of a believer. Still, my ethics had remained pretty much in the Christian model.
After my wife divorced me, I returned to hedonism, for a while. Then I met another girl, whose father was an organist at an Episcopal church, and we got married there, and I eventually returned to that denomination, after a brief stint with the Presbyterians near our house in Atlanta. (Actually, near Conyers.)
Throughout all this, I was mostly a consumer, and that mostly on Sunday mornings. For some reason, though, people around me have always sought my advice. That part of my life began to merge with my church life, finally coming together in becoming first a Christian Universalist minister, then seeking to become an Episcopal priest, before giving up on the Episcopalians, because of the internal strife there.
I have now returned to the church of my youth, finding that one CAN go home again, some times. After moving to New York, I have become a supply preacher and am hoping to be ordained in the United Church of Christ. We're about as far left as the UU folks, having approved marriage for any couple in our church at General Synod in Atlanta, two years ago. A Baptist friend of mine, who did my vocational testing for my Episcopal diocese, said UCC stood for "Unitarians Considering Christ". Maybe so!
Like Rocky, I love to hear others tell their story, and to know that story is ongoing every day of our lives. Rocky says he's an atheist, but I see too much of the example of Christ in how Rocky lives his life to believe THAT. He's just not hung up on it, and that's a beautiful thing.
Posted by Dennis Lowe At 10:29:21 AM On 05/22/2007 | - Website - |
As a boy, my parents brought me to church and Sunday school in a Congregational Church. We stopped going at some point and I didn't give much thought to religion till I got married and had my first child. When my first son was born, our Pastor was one of the first people at the hospital and I was impressed by that. I was more impressed with the miracle of child birth and figured there must be a God. I also prayed long and hard for his health (and still do). My wife influenced me to go to church and I then became a member of the Lutheran Church she grew up in. I've come to enjoy the Lutheran tradition. I too enjoy the historical aspect of religion. I like how Martin Luthur reformed the church of his time. There was a recent big screen movie devoted to him. Basically, he stressed how we are saved by faith not by our deeds or how much we pay to the church. This is a gift from God and it can't be earned.
I'm fascinated by the teachings of Jesus. I attended a weekly seminar a few years ago at church that explored the meaning of Christianity. It was a course for people exploring the faith or for people like me who were just interested. The course used a video tape series by an attorney turned minister. I found his approach to the subject very interesting. One of the first tapes talked about why he believed Jesus was who he claimed he was. The fellow made his arguement like an attorney. For intstance, he said something like, "Jesus was either telling the truth or he was a lunatic." It's an interesting arguement because how many raving lunatic's do you know that make so much sense, care about people for their sake, do not seek political power and have made such an impact on human history. I realize many people have used religion and Christianity for their own horrible purpose or misrepresent the core values of the religion and/or ram it down people's throats with the fear of God. We all despise this. Yet, many of us find comfort and strength, especially in times of crises, knowing there is a God who loves us. I'm uncomfortable talking religion to people. I'd rather them find interest in the things I may be doing in church and ask me if their interested.
God bless!
Posted by Curt Stone At 04:05:12 PM On 05/15/2007 | - Website - |
Being a guy interested in the choice of words that others use, "sneakers" vs. "tennis shoes", "market" vs. "grocery store", "Coke" vs "soda", etc., I'm just wondering:
Did you really grow up as a Southern Baptist hearing the word "testimonial"? The reason that I'm asking is that I did as well and the word ALWAYS used was "testimony". Which seems to fit better according to m-w.com: "a public profession of religious experience".
So you're an atheist. Well at least you aren't a dawg. Oh wait...
Posted by Timothy Briley At 10:05:05 AM On 05/17/2007 | - Website - |
I became atheist after watching return the planet of the apes when I was about 16. I suddenly felt very stupid watching these people pray to a bomb, which they could see feel and touch, yet I had experienced none of this with "god" yet had blindly done as told by various relgious leaders.
I now believe in respect for my fellow human being no matter what religion, and beleive that our souls are the memories that people carry of us after we gone. In other words, when we die, we die, no after life, no bright light, we're gone.
Posted by Carl Tyler At 11:58:25 AM On 05/15/2007 | - Website - |
That being said, Rocky, I would say that we're kindred spirits -- if I believed there was such a thing as a "spirit."
Now... back to Lost - The Answers!
Posted by Nathan T. Freeman At 10:26:56 PM On 05/17/2007 | - Website - |
So as I grow up if anyone asked me if I believed in god, I'd say no. It seems a very strange concept to me. My belief system for the how the universe came to be and how it runs is entirely based on empirical evidence. There are lots of thing we don't know, lots of mysteries in the universe yet to unravel. For me, God is not a compelling answer to any of the questions still out there.
If anyone wants to believe in the God of Abraham in one of his various flavours, a pantheon of Greek, Roman, Viking, Celtic, pagan or Hindu gods, the FSM or any other form of supernatural deity, then that is fine by me. As long as that does not interfere with me in any way shape or form.
It's interesting to look in at the US as an outsider. Right up there as a guiding principle is the separation of church and state, secular government. I wish that was the case in the UK (even though in practice it makes little difference to the running of the UK). But the zeal of the religious right in the US is quite frightening.
I was in a bar at a drop zone in southern California and opened my wallet to get some money. I pulled out the notes and next to the dollars there was a couple of ten pound notes, easily distinguished from the dollars. The guy sitting next to me at the bar noticed and asked to see one. I handed one over to him and looking at the design he noticed the name written under the bearded old man on the back. "Charles Darwin. Only in the UK" he said shaking his head.
The discussion continued and I was shocked, truly lost for words, when the guy flat out said to me that I had no morals; could have no morals, because all morality came from God. Without a belief in God, It was impossible for me to have any moral framework. "What stops you just killing babies?" I was stunned. I couldn't come up with a better answer than, "Because it's wrong".
It wasn't until some time later, after reading and listening to articles about science, atheism and social humanism that I came to have a better understanding about why the answer "Because it's wrong" was actually a pretty good one. I don't need God to tell me what is right and wrong. I don't need Hell as a threat to stop me doing bad things. I get my morality from the culture I was brought up in. I get it from the social structure that has allowed humans to be the dominant creature on the face of the planet. I believe that the morality expressed by religion is a reflection of the morality of societies that spawned them, not the other way round.
Posted by Kerr At 05:18:59 PM On 05/15/2007 | - Website - |